113: The Biology of Belief with Dr. Bruce Lipton
Transcript of Episode 113: The Biology of Belief with Dr. Bruce Lipton
With Dr. Daniel Pompa and special guest Dr. Bruce Lipton.
Hello everyone and welcome to Cellular Healing TV. I’m your host, Meredith Dykstra, and I have Dr. Pompa on the line, of course, and today we have a very special guest. You probably see that our format is a little different. We’re usually recording on Google Hangouts, but today we have a special guest, Dr. Bruce Lipton, calling in and joining us from Skype today. We’re so excited to have him on the show, and before we jump in, I’m going to read a little bit about Dr. Lipton.
Bruce H. Lipton, scientist and lecturer, received his Ph.D. at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. He served as an Associate Professor of Anatomy at the University of Wisconsin’s School of Medicine. Lipton’s research on mechanisms controlling cell behavior employed cloned human muscle cells. In addition, he lectured in Cell Biology, Histology and Embryology. Bruce resigned his tenured position to pursue independent research integrating quantum physics with cell biology.
His breakthrough studies on the cell membrane, the “skin” of the cell, revealed that the behavior and health of the cell was controlled by the environment, findings that were in direct contrast with prevailing dogma that life is controlled by genes. Lipton returned to academia as a Research Fellow at Stanford’s School of Medicine to test his hypotheses. His ideas concerning environmental control were substantiated in two major scientific publications. The new research reveals the biochemical pathways connecting the mind and body and provides insight into the molecular basis of consciousness and the future of human evolution.
Bruce has taken his award-winning, medical school lectures to the public and is currently a popular keynote speaker and workshop presenter on topics of conscious parenting and the science of complementary medicine. To learn more, visit brucelipton.com. Welcome, Dr. Bruce. We’re so excited to have you here.
I am excited to be here too, because I’ll tell you the truth; this is an opportunity to talk to a wonderful audience with the guidance of a wonderful teacher, so I’m very happy to be here with you, Dan. Thank you so very much.
You’re welcome. Hey, Meredith, you might want to mute; I hear a little feedback, and I don’t think it’s coming from Bruce because he has headphones on.
Dr. Lipton, we are grateful to have you here. I feel like the first show that we did several years ago on Cellular Healing TV that we should have had you as a guest. In my mind, you’re the father of cellular healing. I think as time goes on, you’ll be known as the father of cellular healing. I teach cellular healing. I have sayings, doc, that, “You can’t get well until you fix the cell.”
These are the things that I teach to doctors all around the world, and a lot of it has come from your research as a stem-cell biologist. You wrote the book, Biology of Belief ten years ago. I think I read the book eight years ago and got locked into it. As a matter of fact, my five R’s, Dr. Lipton, are number one, remove the source; R number two is regenerate the cell membrane, and we’re going to have that conversation in some depth today, but I have to ask this question. First of all, how did you get into this topic? I know there’s a story about how you got into this.
Well, Dan, it’s a very interesting story because I was teaching at the University of Wisconsin School of Medicine teaching the conventional curriculum about how genes control life, a concept referred to as genetic determinism that our physical, behavioral, and our emotional characteristics are locked into gene programs. You have to realize, if you’re teaching that, what does it mean?
What it means is that you’re teaching doctors to tell patients that their life is controlled by genes and that they don’t control the genes because the genes are self-actualizing. Genes turn on and off and they control who we are. I’m teaching that, and I say, “Well, what does it mean?” What it really means is this: If that’s true, then we are victims of our heredity, meaning our life is already predetermined to some large degree, even before we’re born by the genes that we receive that we cannot change. In the classroom, I’m reaching victimization basically.
In my research – you’ve got to realize that this is 48 years ago – I was cloning stem cells. Now, 48 years ago – you say, “Well, how many people in the world were really researching stem cells?” and I could probably count them on my hand. I happen to be in a unique place at a unique time and everything was just right for all of it to come together, and I said, “What was my research?” and simply cloning means this: You take one cell and put it in a petri dish by itself, so I isolate one stem cell.” You say, “Stem cell?” I go, “Yeah, let’s simplify it.”
A stem cell is an embryonic cell. It’s just an embryonic cell.” They asked why I called it a stem cell. I call the cell an embryonic cell to the moment you’re born, and then right after you’re born, I look at the same cell. It’s not a stem cell because you’re not an embryo anymore. Recognizing an embryo cell is multi-potential. It can form anything, so why do I have stem cells? This is most important for our health and that is this: Every day we lose hundreds of billions, with a B. Hundreds of billions of cells die every day. This is normal attrition. The issue is this. How long can you live if a hundred billion cells are dying every day? You have to replace them, and that’s what stem cells are for. They keep the number of cells balanced as the other ones die.
Let’s take a little sidebar here and recognize this. There is a tendency for people to see themselves when they look in the mirror, and they say oh a single human, a single organism, a single biology, and I go, this is true, but a human is made out of about 50 trillion cells. Why is this relevant? Because when I say Bruce or you say Dan, that name is not for a single thing, it’s a name for a community. I’m made out of 50 trillion cells. The cells are the living entity. Bruce is an absolute, by definition, a community of 50 trillion cells, and so therefore the cells are the living entity and we, in our consciousness, are like a government controlling the fate of 50 trillion cells. We have to recognize the power of cells in here because we are cells.
I take one of these stem cells and put it in a culture dish by itself. It divides every 10 or 12 hours, so there’s 2, 4, 8, 16, double, double, double, double, and after a week, I have 50,000 cells in the petri dish. The most important point is that they all came from one parent, so 50,000 genetically identical cells are in the petri dish. I then take those cells and split them up into three different petri dishes. Here’s what I do. I change the chemistry of the culture medium.
Sidebar: Culture medium? If I take cells out of an organism and put it into a culture dish, I have to try to recreate the environment from which they came. Cells are like fish, they live in an aquarium – fluid. That’s why when you cut yourself open fluid comes out, because cells live in fluids. I said the fluid that cells live in is really derived from the blood, so if I want to make culture medium and I want to grow human cells, I take a look at human blood composition and then try to synthesize human blood composition in to culture medium in my dish. If I grow mouse cells, I look at mouse blood and try to get the composition. I match the blood type and the culture medium for the cells, but since I synthesized the medium, I can change some of the composition.
I have three dishes with genetically identical cells, but I change the composition of the culture medium chemistry a little bit in each of the dishes.
You’re changing the cells’ environment.
Yeah, the cells live in that, so it’s just like when you look around you. The air you breathe, the water, the food, everything is your environment.
It’s a cell in a new home.
A new home, yeah. It’s like taking people off the planet and sending them to another planet that is an all-plastic petri dish.
From the same cell, you’re putting it into three different little homes or planets.
Yeah, three different planetarium environments, and so what was relevant is that in one dish the cells formed muscle and in the second dish the cells formed bone; in the third dish, the cells formed fat cells. The most overriding, most profound question is, what controls the fate of the cells? You start with the premise that they are genetically identical so you can’t say the genes in this one cause muscle and the genes in this one caused bone, because they all have the same genes.
It wasn’t the genes that made the decision of what the cells become. What it is, is the environment, so each different environment is information that the cell reads and then the cell adjusts its genetics to fit the environment. Right there is the most important health-related statement I could ever make. The cell’s biology is a complement to the environment in which cells live.
Right there, I have to stop you because that is the old dogma of you’ve got diabetes because your mom got it; you got cancer because your dad had it. You got this because your parents had it, but what you’re saying is this is a whole different science that you’ve been studying now for many years that the cell really determines who we are by its environment not because of what it’s programmed to be.
Let’s pull it up a little bit, Dan, and that is this is that the cells – okay, let’s talk about the family. Oh, there’s cancer running in my family and any time we have running in family that term and conventional biologists translate it as genetics; what’s running in the family is you’re passing genes from mother to father to child, down, down, down, down.
Every time we talk about something running in a family, it’s always been psychologically associated with, “It must be genes that are controlling this, because it’s in the family.” We now know with the new science that since environment is controlling the genes, and then basically those families create environments that are passed from generation to generation – environments to thinking and behavior. A child learns behavior by observing the parents, so whatever the parents’ behavior is, the child expresses the same behavior.
Since behavior is now associated with genetics, then all of a sudden, I say, “Well, when there is something passing through a family, can I attribute it to genetics or to behavior?” Now we look at both of those, and guess what we find? About 1% of illness, 1% of illness, is associated with genes being transmitted from one family to the other. That is profound, because it says, “If 1% of illness is due to genes, then what the heck is the other 90+% of illness due to, and if it’s not due to genes, then what is it because if you know what that it, then you have power.”
If we attribute everything to genes and find out that only 1% is related to genes, then we’re missing 90% of where health issues are.
We’re not born doomed just because we do inherit our parents’ DNA. We’re not born doomed to develop these characteristics. We have the ability to change who we are.
That’s exactly what the culture experiment showed. For example, you say, “Okay, I have the same genes that my parents have,” so I have two culture dishes with the same genes, but if I put this one in environment A it will form muscle and put the same one in environment B, it forms bone, then all of a sudden you have the same genes but it didn’t tell me what the fate was. So that’s the difference.
Let me just add this. Conceptually, it’s very important to recognize when they were tracing the fate of children adopted into families that have cancer, they found that the adopted child would express the same family cancer with the same possibility of any of the natural siblings; yet, the adopted child has completely different genetics. Cancer was running in the family, not because of genes but because of an environment that was passed through the family lineage.
It turns on certain genes, triggers certain things, so the environment literally turns on. You know I have to say this though, Bruce, because most doctors still believe the old dogma that says basically there’s nothing you can do. You got the genes from your parents and you’re unlucky. Am I right on that?
Unfortunately, you’re 100% right, and I have to recognize that going to medical school is not easy for anybody. Having been in professional medical school, I see students come in with a great desire to save the world and then get programmed, programmed, and programmed with these beliefs in their head with no freedom of thinking. As a matter of fact, that’s interesting because in medical school, we never really asked the students a thing. We asked the students to remember, and so when we teach something in a medical school, it really becomes almost like a concrete belief.
When a person learns that this is the way it happens and they leave medical school, that’s the belief that they carry, but since what we’re talking about – the new science of this genetics is actually called epigenetics. Let me just clarify that for people. It’s most important. When we say genetic control, that’s what we used to say, or still say, many people still do, genetic control they’re saying control by genes, so what’s the new science? It’s epigenetics.
When we say epigenetic control, it means something totally different. Epi means above, so when I say genetic control, controlled by genes, and when I say epigenetic control, that says control above the genes. All of a sudden, people say, “Wait, the control is not in the genes?” and I say, “No, the control, is in the environment,” and when we get to unit specifically, our perception of the environment. Why is this relevant? When teaching in a medical school that genes control life, you’re a victim of your heredity.
Teaching epigenetics your genetics are based on your environment and your perception. Why is that important? We can change our environment. We can change our perceptions. All of a sudden we say, “I control my genes and the genes don’t control me. That’s it, but when was all this new science? Since 1990. That’s a new science in 1990, when does new science come into medical school? It takes 10 or 15 years before a new science is established enough to become part of a curriculum. What does that mean? Most doctors out there, let’s say their last state of education was within the last 10 years, let’s say 10 years ago, left medical school with a belief of genes controlling life. Then, even introducing a new science, it didn’t radically change overnight and now the whole thing is environment now. It’s slowly coming in, so the issue with medical is it’s based on what we’re teaching in a medical school, and if we don’t teach the current, most up-to-date moment things going on, then our doctors are not practicing from that new awareness. This is why there is hesitancy, so to speak, of accepting the new biology in medicine.
The reality is this, it’s inevitable. It’s inevitable that epigenetics is a revolution because the difference is, I am not a victim of my genetics because I, through my perception and my ability to control my environment, have absolute control over my genetics, so all of a sudden, we’re not victims, we’re masters but without knowledge or mastery. We’ve been messing it up.
We’ve been talking about how to master is better, because the fact that we can control it, now what do we do? I have to say this. Back in the human genome project that was in the 1990s, they set out to prove a certain number of genes humans must have because we’re so much more sophisticated than the lowly worm and the mouse; therefore, we must have at least a hundred some thousand genes that we’re going to discover. We’re going to bring the best scientists around the world to discover this, but they discovered something else, Bruce. They discovered that we have about the same number of genes as a worm. Is that real? Is that how that happened?
It turns out that the surprise was is that they were expecting over a hundred thousand genes, and you have to remember, the belief was that a gene controls a function, so you need 100,000 to make a complex human, and then they assessed the genome and found 20,000 genes, but that’s the same number as that microscopic worm. Remember, consciously what we were thinking is that genes give the character and control of life, so if you want to understand evolution, then we look at it as increasing complexity of genetics so we created an evolutionary tree based on primitive, more complex organisms that are all due to genetics. There are a higher number of genes in the top animals and a lower number of genes, and then when the human genome results came in, they said, “Oh my God, the humans up here at the top have the same number as the lowest one.” Then they basically said, “Wait, our belief system is totally wrong. It’s basically wrong.” This is why epigenetics is not just a new science, it’s a revolution. It upturns a whole century of genetic research that says we are the expression of our genes and turns around and says, “We are the ones who control our genes, and therefore we are the ones that control our expression.”
This is so wonderful because after a century of telling people that you’re a victim, we now can talk to people and say, “Look, you have the ability to change the reading of your genes and control your health to an absolutely high degree of control, and if you know about it, you can do something about it, and if you don’t know anything about it, that lack of information, yet knowledge is power, a lack of knowledge is a lack of power. We have been disempowered by the belief in genes when it turns out to be flawed. Now we need to re-empower.
I think one of the things people have to understand, and you tell me if I’m wrong, all humans have 99.9% of the same genes. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. You look a lot different than me. How is that statement even close to being right?
The whole idea is – the first thing is this. If you say that genes control things and that different genes would have different control, but if I say that genes themselves are controlled by the environment, then I could have 10 different genes but the same environment can alter the reading of these 10 different genes. I am really more an expression of an environment.
The idea behind that is, this is like where did health come from in our western civilization? You say, “Well, the medical community has created health, and because used to be all sickly and all kinds of stuff like that,” and he goes, “Well, not actually; health came from environmental people who started to recognize that pollution in swamps and dirty water and foul things in the environment are causing our health problems, and all of a sudden once we’ve cleaned up and sanitized the environment, then we had all this health.
The basic idea was, even from the very beginning, the concept of genes really was second to the environment because they already knew that just cleaning up the environment saved human civilization. Now we have a genetic understanding of that with the new science.
I’d love to talk about the university study about the same genes in mice and they exposed one group to a toxin. All of a sudden, you had fat mice, who by the way, their ancestors were born doomed to become fat, not because they had the gene, but because the gene was turned on by the toxin, the environment, so they changed the environment. They fed them the same. They exercised them the same, but they gave them one little toxin and changed the environment, and all of a sudden obese and other diseases occur. Toxins are an environment change. They can change the expression of a gene and cause all these bad things to happen. We see that all the time.
Now, your book, The Biology of Belief, goes beyond the fact that toxins can take change genes. If we get rid of toxins, we can turn off bad genes, but your book talks about thoughts and how our thinking can drive inflammation of the cell membrane, ultimately changing the genetic expression for better or worse, and that good thoughts could down regulate cell inflammation on the membrane and also change who we are. Talk about that, because that’s the empowerment that you’re talking about.
This is where it also changed my life, because here I am teaching in a medical school of conventional science about genes and all that kind of stuff, then I find out that it was environment by changing the chemistry of the culture medium. I said, “Wait a minute. The culture medium is my version of blood. What is the relationship between my study of cells and tissue culture in a human body?” Here’s the point. When you look in the mirror and see yourself, you’re not seeing a single entity. You’re seeing 50 trillion cells under your skin. The joke is that we are a skin-covered petri dish with 50 trillion cells inside, so yeah, we have a culture medium – of course, the original culture medium called blood, but in my study the chemistry of the culture medium changed the genetics of the cell. It makes no difference if the cell is in a skin-covered dish or a plastic dish. It still responds to the culture medium, but the culture medium in the body is called blood. That’s where we create a culture medium, but wait, next question.
If the chemical composition of the culture medium is that powerful in controlling biology, what controls the chemistry of the culture medium? The brain is the chemistry. What does that mean? It’s simple. Let’s look at it right away, because the whole mind/body thing is done as soon as we say this. The brain creates the chemistry of the blood, but what chemical should the brain put in? What picture does the mind hold? It’s a simple point. We’re both sitting here, eyes closed, and when we open our eyes we see someone we love – mind, interpretation – person I love – my brain releases dopamine, pleasure. I’m in pleasure of what I love. It releases oxytocin that’s bonding me to the source of my pleasure. It releases vasopressin in love, because vasopressin makes you more attractive. It releases growth hormone when you’re in love.
The blood of your body, the culture medium, the chemistry changes to dopamine, oxytocin, vasopressin and growth hormone just with a vision of love. What’s the significance of that? The answer is very simple and the answer is this: When people are in love, the chemistry of their culture medium, their blood, the chemistry of their blood creates health. That’s right. When somebody is in love, they say, “Oh, look how they glow; they’re so in love.” The glowing of health is because the chemistry released by the brain when the mind is in love is chemistry that promotes health.
Reverse it. What about anger, stress, and worry.
That’s just it. Let’s look at it this way, since that is the biggest problem on the planet today. Are you ready? That is this: Stress is related to fear something is not going to work out. The same person just a minute ago that opened her eyes and saw something they love – same person – this time opens their eyes and sees something that scares them.
The first thing is this. That chemistry of love is not going to be secreted by the brain. What’s going to be secreted by the brain in fear? Stress hormones; inflammatory agents. What’s the relevance to that chemistry? When I add those chemicals to my plastic culture dish with cells in it, the chemistry of fear shuts down the growth of the cells, and actually can lead to the death. Fear kills.
Why is this relevant? The human body is a plastic culture dish covered by skin in this case. It creates culture in your own blood. The chemistry of the culture medium changes with the picture in the mind. How do the cells know what to do? The mind is telling the cells what’s going on, and the cells are adjusting their biology to keep you alive in this world, but if the mind misinterprets the world, then the cells don’t get a real shot at what’s going on in the world, they only get your interpretation of what you saw. If you are under stress, even if there is no real reason for stress, your cells don’t know there is no reason for stress; they’ll just be stressed and they will cause illness.
What do we know now? Ninety percent apparently of doctor visits are directly due to stress. What does that mean? The mind and the perception of fear, protection is releasing chemistry that gets you ready for fight or flight. What’s the relevance? This is the whole reason right here. Fight or flight means I’m going to use my arms and legs. I’ve got to run away or I’ve got to fight. What does the hormones and chemicals of fear do? They shut down all the mechanisms of the body that don’t have anything to do with protection to allocate all the energy of the body for protection.
Let’s say you have a bacterial infection and you’re being chased by a saber tooth tiger, and I say, “Okay, you have energy to fight the infection; you have energy to run away from the tiger. How much energy do you want to put into running away from the tiger? How much of your energy do you want to fight the bacteria? The answer is silly. If the tiger catches you, the bacteria problem is not a problem anymore, so the idea says stress hormones shut off the immune system. Why? That’s protection on the inside. I have a bacterial infection and I’m being chased by a saber tooth tiger, bacterial infection doesn’t mean anything. The point is that stress hormones shut down the immune system to conserve energy to run away.
Secondly, do you remember I said you have to replace hundreds of billions of your cells every day because that’s what’s dying? Yeah, but that’s growth. Growth is shut down when you’re being chased by a saber tooth tiger. Basically it says, you’re shutting down things to conserve all of the energy to run away from the tiger. Things that are not necessary for running away, I don’t need them. That could be a problem. In the old days, this is the issue. There was a tiger. It chased you. If you got away from the tiger, there was no more stress until the next tiger.
What about today – 24/7/365? Every day, every minute we are putting stress hormones in the system, and every day every minute those hormones, by definition, shut down or inhibit growth and immune system. What’s the consequence of that? Death is the only consequence for that.
How you view your world is what the world becomes around you. That’s a fact. If you’re viewing things as stress – one of the things that I learned years ago from your work was that your thoughts can actually drive cellular inflammation, which is what we talk about. If the cell membrane becomes inflamed, we’re changing our DNA, not for good but for bad. It was a stretch for people. They didn’t understand. How could your thoughts drive inflammation? Maybe some people are still having that. We get toxins attached to the cell, driving inflammation, change the epigenome and people get that Bruce, but their thoughts can drive cells’ DNA to change? How do we get people to understand that?
It’s basically getting down to the fact that the environment controls a cell. That’s a given fact. What’s the environment? It’s the blood, and I go fine, and if there are toxins in the blood or bacteria in the blood, they can affect that local environment; that could affect the cell. Yeah, but what else? Just changing the chemistry of the blood is what changed the fate of the cell. That goes back to the original experiment. Chemistry changed the blood. Since the chemistry is changed by thought, but a thought of what? Fear? Adrenalin? Epinephrine?
You get the call that your kid is in trouble, you feel something go over top of you. You thought just triggered adrenalin – cortisol – and your heart rate went up, so my thoughts must have made my heart race. If I thought a lion walked in the room even though it didn’t, my heart rate would go up and I’d be in a fight or flight mode and my cells would be reacting, correct?
Absolutely, because your cells only see the picture in your mind, they don’t see the real world. Your mind is supposed to interpret the real world, and if there is a mistake in your interpretation, then that means the cells are not seeing what the real world is; the cells are seeing what you believe in your mind. It’s kind of funny.
When I try to give this in a lecture, I talk to people and say, “When you were young you probably played with something like paint by numbers, which is a picture with an outline with all the numbers in it and then there’s a pain box with numbers for each color and then you take the color and you touch and fill in the things and then you create this Picasso picture and it’s really beautiful, and then I want to tell people. Here’s the simplicity of biology. This is the simple – there’s no way of getting out of this. The mind works with paint by numbers in reverse.
First you start with a picture in your mind and then the brain breaks down the picture into numbers but the numbers are not paint, they are neurochemicals. Those neurochemicals are released in the body to do what? Create a physical behavioral complement of the picture. If I have a picture of fear, my body will manifest physical fear. Basically, your thoughts are being translated into your biology.
Look, 2,500 years ago, the Buddha said, “What you think is what you become.” Your thoughts are turned into reality. This is not magic and new age voodoo, this is direct chemistry. A thought activates neurons that make the picture of the thought; those neurons in turn cause a release of chemicals, which turn that picture into biology. All of a sudden, that’s the whole thing. Are you living in fear? Are you living in love? Are you living in health and harmony? Are you living in a world that you see as falling apart and therefore you are going to be falling apart with the same image?
We’ve been trying to change the chemistry. No, change the thought not the chemistry. The chemistry is the thought. You don’t have to mess with the chemistry. Just mess with the thought, because a new thought releases different chemistry.
How dangerous it is to define yourself with a disease. Just think about that. When you say –
You just said it. That was the key right there, Dan. Just think about that. Yes, think about the diagnosis that you have cancer. Now, I say what is the picture that’s going to be in your head? Every damn fear picture you can think of is going to show up in your head, and every one of those pictures are going to release what kind of chemistry? The chemistry that’s going to shut down the immune system and actually lead to the diagnosis.
Basically, we have to understand – this whole mind/body thing comes down to this simple understanding: Placebo. What’s placebo? Everyone says, “I know what the placebo is. That’s when you take a pill and you think it’s real, and then you get healed, and then you find out that the pill was a sugar pill.” Then you have to say, “What healed you?” The answer is obviously not the sugar pill, so what healed you? The answer is the vision of healing because the pill is going to do it for you, so you healed yourself with your thought. That’s great. Everybody understands that. I have no problem with that because everybody understands that.
Here’s what I have a problem with. That placebo by definition represents the consequence of a positive thought. This drug is positively going to heal me. That’s great, so what about a negative thought, the no “cebo?” That’s the no “cebo,” but the public doesn’t really know about the no “cebo,” and even most of the physicians don’t talk about it either. Why is it relevant? As much as positive thought can generate healing, a negative thought can generate every disease that we have on this planet. We never talk about negative thinking. It’s the power of thinking. It’s the power of positive thinking. Positive thinking takes you in a positive, healthy direction and negative thinking takes you down into this other thinking. Why is it relevant? If you just understand the psychology of people, but psychologists will tell you that most of our thoughts are negative, disempowering, and self-sabotaging, but if those are our thoughts, then what could be the expression of that? A health crisis that the planet is experiencing right now, and it’s not due to bacteria, viruses, or germs. It’s due to that.
I tell you, I experienced this. I was very sick some years ago myself and was very toxic with mercury after I got some dental amalgams out and became very sick. I got well. It took some years. I got the stuff out of my brain. My DNA started changing; however, three was neurological pathways where my brain became very hypersensitive to every chemical on the planet even though I was well.
These neuro pathways were genetically set up and one little sniff of the smallest chemical I would react to it horrifically. I had to change it, Bruce, and I did it by changing my thoughts about those chemicals. It was a process that I became better and better at. We’ve talked about it in past shows, but I became able to enter my world and now these things don’t affect me, but I had to re-channel it epigenetically. I had to re-channel the pathways. I experienced what you’re saying.
You are the poster child of this whole thing at this moment, because that’s exactly what the whole story is about. It’s recognizing that our thoughts are primary in controlling our biology, and then I have to ask what your thoughts are. That’s where, again, the psychologists will tell you that almost all of our thoughts are not supportive of who we are. It’s unfortunate, because most of this occurred during our developmental period in the first seven years of our lives. This is where we downloaded most of our behavior in our subconscious, but where did you get the behavior? A child’s brain operating in theta, lower than consciousness is alpha. You’re measuring with an EEG; put wires on a kid’s head and read brain activity.
A child is not predominantly expressing alpha consciousness until after age seven, but what consciousness was that child experiencing before self-consciousness? It was in a lower vibration called theta, which is imagination. Of course a child understands but can mix the real world and the imaginary world because their brain is operating in theta, which is imagination, so for example, a mother says to the child, “Give me the broom back,” and the kid is looking at the mother like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about. This is a horse. I’m riding a horse.” To the child at that moment, that broom is a horse. Theta – imagination, taking that and then turning it into reality.
That’s nice. Theta is imagination, but here’s the problem. Theta is hypnosis. What’s the relevance to that? Before you can become conscious, you have to have a database. You can’t be conscious with no data. Where do you get a database? You’re born into the world. This all-new reality. How can I deal with that? The first thing to do is download. What is this world? How does it work? I don’t’ know anything about it. That’s what nature gave us the download period for seven years.
The download period is how to deal with the world that you’ve just been born into, but you’re a new kid. How the heck do you know how to behave? It’s design. Hypnosis. Watch your mother. Watch your father. Watch your siblings. Watch your community. Don’t just watch them, it’s on record. How they behave is how you behave, and the nuances are fabulous if you think about it. This is one example: How a father talks to his own child is not the same as the way a father talks to somebody else’s child. It’s not the same as the father talks to the mother. It’s not the same as the father talks to another adult. It’s not the same as the father talks to the policeman. Guess what? A child, by watching their father, will learn every one of these just by observing how the father behaves.
This is the download period, the first seven years. What’s relevant? Those are the programs that essentially run our lives. Why is that relevant? This is important about child development and child psychology. Parents – this is a critical nature of how we got affected and how we affect others. Parents act like coaches in raising their kids. What do you mean like a coach? A kid on a team is playing a sport. He’s not doing that well. He’s just hacking off and not really playing. The coach comes up and says, “You don’t deserve this; being on this team. You don’t deserve this. Who do you think you are? You can do better than this.” Why would the coach say all that? The answer is because the kid will understand that he/she has been hacking off now it’s time to get serious and do better. The coach wants me to do better. I’m going to do better, and that takes thinking. That’s the issue. You have to understand what the coach is trying to do when he says you’re not good enough. It doesn’t mean you’re not good enough forever, it just means you’re not good right now.
What about a child under consciousness is not operating thetas? What’s theta? It’s record. The parent acting as a coach says to the kid under seven, “You can do better than this. This is not good enough. You’re not loveable.” Not forever, but for right now. The father is thinking that but he’s saying, “You’re not loveable.” What did the kid download in all this? Not loveable; not worthy; not good enough; not whatever this or that. You can’t do this; can’t do that.
Guess what? Psychologists reveal that 70% of these programs are disempowering, self-sabotaging, and limiting, not because the parent meant it, but the parent didn’t understand that a child under seven is not conscious enough to interpret the meaning that was, “When I as a coach say not good enough, I’m only talking about the fact your behavior at this moment is not right,” but when a child records “not good enough” as a program, not good enough is the rest of your life.
What’s the issue? The issue is that most of the programming that we got has disempowered us and it has told us that we are weak, frail, and vulnerable. Why is that relevant? If you hold those pictures of weak, frail, and vulnerable in your head, then you’re going to release chemistry to do what? Create weak, frail, and vulnerable.
Isn’t that the problem? I coach people. This is what I do. I teach doctors. I coach people. This is what I love to do. I love changing lives, but I see that limit in people. I see that they are creating their disease. I see that their thoughts are creating their failures, their success, or nonsuccess. What do we do, Bruce? How do we change that, because it was programmed? How do we change it?
Before I get into that – a little sidebar. I love this one. This is new science. Four hundred years the Jesuits have said, “Give me a child until it’s seven and I will show you the man.” That’s nice, but what does it mean? It means give me the first seven years of programming a child, and I will describe the outcome of this child’s life, because you become the program. They knew that. As they said, “Give me seven years, and I will show you the man.” I will show you what will result. I will create.
That’s 400-year-old information. That information hasn’t disappeared. We have all have that program. It’s interesting because the significance to that is – in the movie The Matrix, it’s called science fiction, but it’s a documentary. We have all been programmed. That’s true. Everybody who has been a kid for seven years the brain was on program.
Most of the programs are negative. You can understand why today’s health crisis exists. You can understand why the world is so engulfed in violence and all this stuff. It’s because this is the programming.
There are toxic thoughts – how do we win?
The only way is that you have to change the programming. That’s the important part. Can you change the program? You damn well better know that you can, because if you can’t change the program, this is the worst interview in the whole world because I’m saying, “I’m sorry. That’s the rest of your life so forget about it.” No, we can change the programming, but there has been a problem, and here’s the problem.
Most people think and say, “The mind,” a singularity. A mind – no, recognize that there are two parts to the mind. We know the names, but you have to recognize that there are two interdependent parts that are not the same thing. They learn in different ways. That’s the critical part, and they have different functions. There are two minds that do different things, and yet when you combine them as one, that means you really didn’t understand that there were two.
What are the names? There is the conscious mind, which is the latest evolution of the brain, and the subconscious mind, which was there before the conscious mind. I say the difference? Subconscious means behavior and it does not involve consciousness. It’s like automatic; push the button; play the program. No thinking is involved.
Conscious is creative. That creative mind is what made humans, and their creativity create the world that we have today. The good stuff – the technology. We also, unfortunately, have to own that we created the world and the violence as well. We created the whole thing, and that comes from consciousness and consciousness can learn because its creative ability makes learn very easily.
What’s the difference between the two minds, the functional difference? Consciousness is the equivalent of manual control. First, let’s say what is consciousness? It’s right behind your forehead. It’s the prefrontal cortex that’s the seed of it. It’s the site of where you as an identity are; you as a spirit; you as a unique entity is the conscious mind.
The subconscious mind is a record/playback device. That could be anybody’s subconscious mind. It’s not you. You are conscious mind. The conscious mind is you and it’s creative. Then this is the point. Are you ready? Conscious mind has your wishes and desires, because that’s a vision of a future. The subconscious mind does not see a future. It does not see a past. This is important. The subconscious mind is only in the present; always is in the present; and does not distinguish forward and backward time. Conscious mind can think into the future. Conscious mind can recall the past. It can travel.
When you are controlling your biology, your vehicle, with your conscious mind, you have the hands on the wheel and you’re taking it toward creativity. This is great, but what about the subconscious mind? The subconscious mind is programs. You just put the button and the program plays. It’s a habit mind, so it’s the habit mind not the creative mind. People think it’s the negative mind, but no, it’s a recorder. It’s not bad or good. It’s a recorder. The programs can be good, or the programs can be bad, but don’t blame the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind is unique and powerful.
When did you learn how to walk? When you were one or two? Did you ever have to learn how to walk every day you wake up? No, once you learned, it’s in there. Once you learned how to drive a car, you know how to drive a car. You don’t have to relearn it. Everything that we learn that we need to make our lives easy can be downloaded as a program, so I can ride a bike, drive a car, or have this conversation without really thinking about it because I know how to talk and I know language. I’m programmed. The subconscious is good programming except if you put a bad program in there, it plays exactly the same. Push the button and you play the bad program.
What’s different about it? Here’s what’s different. The conscious mind is creative but not time bound. Go into the future; go into the past or whatever. The subconscious mind is always in the present moment and only habit essentially. There is a little creativity, but small. Basically, it’s habit. Push the button and play the behavior. You learned it when you were one year old and you’re now 90 years old, push the button and play the same behavior. Why? It’s a program. It always plays the same program.
The idea is this, and here’s the catch of where the whole thing goes wrong. The subconscious mind is hands on the wheel driving. The subconscious mind is autopilot. When you’re not driving the vehicle with your conscious mind, you could still carry out all your functions with the subconscious mind because you know most of them – your job, your life – it’s a program. You can do it.
Here’s the relevance. This is now cutting the line. This is it. When we’re thinking and I say, “Hey, Dan, what are you doing on Thursday afternoon at four o’clock? If you are actually going to answer that question and I say where did you find that answer? It’s not out here anywhere. It’s in here. If I’m going to go seek answer with my conscious mind and it’s inside, then by definition my conscious mind is not driving the vehicle.
Actually, Bruce, the answer is in here. It’s on my calendar somewhere.
That’s the program mind. The relevance about that is simply this: When you’re thinking, by definition that means you’re letting go of the wheel and letting subconscious drive at that moment. If you’re walking down the street and you have a thought, you don’t freeze until the thought is over and then start walking again. No, I’m walking down the street. I’m paying attention, but if I have a thought, my conscious mind goes inside but I’m still walking and I’m still paying attention but not consciously, subconsciously. I know how to walk. My program knows how to walk, and it knows how to watch out, so I’m not going to hit anything.
The point is this. Finally, science has revealed that 95% of the day, minimum, our conscious mind is in thought. What does that mean? That means that 95% of the day you are not driving the vehicle with your conscious mind. Your biology and your destination is not controlled by the program, because you are on auto pilot, because the pilot is inside thinking. What does that mean?
Your wishes and desires are in your conscious mind. Your programs are in your subconscious mind, but the programs in your subconscious mind primarily came from other people by watching your mother, watching your father, watching your siblings, and watching the community. What’s the point? When I’m driving my vehicle with my conscious mind, I’m driving it to the place, direction, and what I want out of my life, but when I am thinking and my auto pilot kicks in, I start expressing behaviors that are not mine, they were automatically downloaded by others, so I’m not expressing my behavior as much as I’m expressing the behavior of my father, my mother’s behavior, or my sibling’s behavior at that point.
What’s the relevance? If the conscious mind was thinking, then by definition, the conscious mind did not see what was going on with auto pilot. Then 95% of the behavior during the day is not observed by us, number one. Number two – 95% of the behavior during the day is coming from programs. Number three – the majority of those programs downloaded in our youth are disempowering, self-sabotaging, and negative.
We really don’t see our own behavior that we’re doing all the time. When people point it out, of course, we get mad because what are you talking about?
That’s kind of funny, because the story I tell in the lecture and everybody laughs, and I use it all the time because if that many people laugh, then it’s not that familiar to that many people. I’m sure you had a friend. You knew your friend’s behavior very, very well, and you happen to know your friend’s parents, and one day you see your friend has the same behavior as their parents and so you say, “Hey, you’re just like your dad.” Then I say, “You back away from Bill, because Bill is going to go ballistic, and say, “How can you compare me to my dad?” Everybody starts to laugh, because they are familiar with it.
It’s the most profound story in the whole world. Everybody else can see that Bill behaves like his dad. The only one who doesn’t see it is Bill. Explain that. The answer is easy. Ninety-five percent of the day, Bill is thinking; 95% of the day he’s playing programs that he acquired during the first seven years of his life, which is from his dad and mom, and when he plays those programs, because he is thinking, he’s the one who doesn’t see it, and everybody says yes.
Guess what? We are all Bill, whether you want to own it or not. We are all Bill. Every day the moment we’re in thought is the moment we go back and play the program, and yet we’re the ones that don’t see it. What is the meaning and end of this? The answer is like, “Oh my God, I wake up in the morning and today I am going out to get health, the best relationship and find the greatest job.” These are my wishes and desires.
I go out and go through hell all day, come home at night, and it didn’t work again. You didn’t know you weren’t driving. All you know is the result. You get home and nothing happened, and yet you left with, “I’m going to find this,” and your thought goes, “What?” My problem isn’t me. My problem is that the universe is not supporting me. I’m a victim of circumstances. I’m a victim of the world. That’s the problem, because now that you’ve said you are a victim, you’re saying you have no power. The fact was, in simple reality, you controlled every minute of that day except 95% of it was controlled by programs in your subconscious that you didn’t see, and since most of them were sabotaging, it was invisible. If it’s invisible, then that gives you the moment to say that it wasn’t me that made my life this way, it was outside that made my life this way. It was invisible.
We have to change it. How do we reprogram it, because that’s it; if it appears it’s okay. Program for success or failure – how do we reprogram?
It’s very important to understand. Remember I said there are two different functions. The conscious mind is creative, wishes, and desires; subconscious is programs. Yeah, but they also learn in different ways. The conscious mind being creative can learn in what way? Read a self-help book; listen to this conversation that we’re having right here. Go watch a video or a movie. Go to a lecture. You’ve got all this information comes in and the conscious mind goes, “Yeah, yeah, I got it. I read the book. If you give me a test on this book, I’ll get 100%.
Yeah, now that you’ve read the book, did your life change? The answer is no. It’s the same life. I’m pretty conscious about when I should be able to do it; I don’t’ know why my mind isn’t different because of this. The answer is this: The conscious mind is a half mind. It doesn’t learn by that creativity. What’s the relevance? Read the book. The subconscious mind didn’t learn anything. Go to the lecture. The conscious mind learned everything and the subconscious mind didn’t learn anything.
My conscious mind could be super bright and my subconscious mind has got all the negative programs and it never got touched because you didn’t know how to record and that was the important part. How does the subconscious mind learn? It’s not by creativity. How does it learn? For seven years it learned because of hypnosis. You were in theta, so hypnosis, but here’s something. You could do self-hypnosis, because every night when you go to bed, the higher vibration of consciousness quiets down. The vibrations get lower because you’re going to the lowest vibration called delta, which is sleep, but between consciousness, alpha and beta, higher vibration and sleep is theta, so every night as you go to bed, guess what? Just as you start to go unconscious, you’re in theta, so if you have earphones on and put on a program of what you want to be, and then every night as you go to bed, you play that, your conscious mind checks out and your subconscious mind is online and it will download what’s on the program. That’s how you do the first seven years, hypnosis. You can do that every night.
Number two – how did you learn something new after seven? The answer is repetition. How many times did you have to say ABC until you get to Z.? You repeated it over and over and over, every time getting another letter until you got all of them down. You got A to Z. Guess what? You’ll never have to do it again. After you created the habit, it’s in there now – A to Z. I can figure out my whole alphabet. Anything I learned and repeated and practiced – it’s practice habituation.
If you want to change something, you’ve got to create a new behavior, but you have to be conscious enough to practice the new behavior. The more you practice the behavior, the more it becomes imprinted as a program. You can rewire it by changing your behavior, but you have to be conscious of it. It’s not a sticky note on the refrigerator. That is a wish. There’s no practice. It’s just every now and again; I look at the door of the refrigerator that says, “Don’t eat the donut,” as I’m eating the donut. That’s not a practice. Practice means you do it.
Lastly, and most importantly, understanding that necessity is the mother of invention that nature has provided a new modality of psychology that’s most amazing. It engages what is called super learning, meaning you can download new beliefs in matter of minutes – five, six seven, or eight minutes you can rewrite a belief you had your whole life, but you have to know how to push the record button. What are these new modalities? Collectively, they are called energy psychology. Many of them all come out with the same results and although they seem to have different ways of getting into it, different programs of how to get into this learning state, they all end up being super learning to some degree where you can download a new belief in minutes.
Where do you get this?
I have a list of them on my website at brucelipton.com under resources. It’s called belief change, energy psychology modalities. There are a whole bunch of different ones, but they essentially all do about the same thing. It is a way of pushing the record button. You can walk away six, seven, or ten minutes later with a completely different behavior than you had and it’s a permanent change. You could say this is new age.
I just want to add this. A person who has become a friend of mine since he got involved with experiencing himself is Jeff Fannin, a neuroscientist who is doing brain mapping, and someone in his lab learned the one technique that I know very well called psyche K and came back to the lab and said, “You can change your beliefs in a few minutes,” and he said, “Raul, look, we do neuro brain mapping. That’s not possible at all. You can’t do it in a few minutes,” so he said, “Look, we’re in the lab. Let me put the wires on my own head. You do the process and change my belief.”
That was the moment his whole career changed. He saw something that happened in seven minutes on the neuro scanner. He said, “This is not possible. There is no place in any literature that says this is possible.” Now, his whole research is that. As a matter of fact, you can take an audience and have somebody volunteer for a belief change come to the front of the stage, put the wires on their head, project above their head the screen of the live EEG as they are sitting on the stage, and go through this belief process change and the audience – even untrained and reading the EEG, goes, “Ah!” because they can see a complete radical change in the readout of the brain within minutes.
It’s like, thank God, because if it wasn’t for that, I wouldn’t have been able to write my book. I wouldn’t be able to have the life that I have today. Why? Because I had to go back and see what programs were stifling me, and now, just quickly because I know time is short, I want to say how do you know what the programs are because you weren’t conscious when the programs were coming in? The jokey part is this, because it’s kind of fun; 95% of your life is coming from the subconscious. Your life is a printout of your subconscious programs.
Anything you like that comes into your life comes in because you have a program to encourage that being there. Here’s the other one. Anything you want but you struggle to get; that you work hard for; that you put a lot of effort into; that you sweat over to make it happen, I say, why are you working so hard? The answer is simple. Inevitably, the subconscious program doesn’t support that being in your life. Right away, you don’t have to go through any kind of analysis of who did what to whom? That’s killing the messenger over the message. The message is that your behavior has been shaped and if you can see what your behavior is doing then you can go back and change the shape.
Basically, you just look at your life and find where your struggles are and recognize wherever those struggles are, wherever you’re working very hard to make something happen, there is a belief that is not supporting you. Now you know where to go to start changing the belief process. First you need to identify where the belief is. These processes, energy psychology modalities, get involved with doing that. What’s really interesting about it? These energy psychology modalities are all basically the same in regard to super learning, and the moment that belief changes, the life will change.
Here’s something simple. I’m having trouble find a love relationship. I can give a balance here – that’s what they call it – and change their belief about that, but you’re not going to walk out the door and in one minute find someone you love. You’re going to have to go through your life and then find the one you love. It takes involvement, but I can show you how fast the change is when we do it with somebody with a phobia. Let’s say they’re afraid of spiders or snakes and I go, “Okay, that’s a fear, which is a program, and we can change the program, and guess what? Five, six, or seven minutes later, bring in that stimulus that provoked them before, and after five, six, or seven minutes this thing will temper that whole thing and they will not respond the same.
Obviously, we can go to your website, brucelipton.com, and you can download different ones.
I’ve given a list of about 20 different versions of these psychology ones. I’m not going to say which one is correct. It’s an individual thing. Which one feels good for you because it’s your belief system? If it sounds good to you, then do that one. That’s the one that feels good.
We just download them and listen to them, right?
You’ve got to see what the programs are. Each one is a different thing. There’s a practice, but like the psych K practice one – the one I know – the one that profoundly changed my life and people around me, it’s called the balance and it’s really just – the harder part is making the belief state what you want and then once you have that, it’s a simple process of an exercise of getting into what’s called the whole brain state, which then opens up a window of super learning, so a belief can be just downloaded just like a recording on a recording device. That’s a physical expression of a whole brain state. What does that mean? A child three years old in a family can learn three different languages simultaneously in a family as independent languages with their own vocabulary and grammar. Now, teach your ten year old one new language. All of a sudden learning one new language at ten is much harder than learning three languages at three.
What happens is that before age seven both hemispheres of the brain, right and left – they have different characters too associate with them, so generally let’s just say my left brain is logic and my right brain is emotion, which is one of the divisions. What’s interesting? Before age seven, they are both in harmony and they’re working together. After age seven, it’s called brain dominance. It’s like a wave. Sometimes during the day you’re in left brain then later you’re in right brain then you’re in left brain then you’re in right brain, so during the day sometimes you’re in left and you’re more logical, and sometimes later in the day you get more emotional, and that’s just because of the dominance of the hemisphere, but to put down a new download you’ve got to have both hemispheres generally integrated. The whole brain, which is just a posture, it’s neuro linguistic programming, brain gem, is basically is how you can get both hemispheres to work in harmony and if you get both of them to work in harmony, the moment they’re in harmony then that statement of your new belief can be downloaded just like the three year old can learn it that fast, so can you.
Just to clear up one of the most frustrating things is that a lot of people talk to themselves. I’m going to give a good talking to myself not to do this. Don’t do that again. Don’t do that again. I keep asking myself, “Who are you talking to?” I’m talking to my subconscious to tell it not to play the program. There’s a problem. There is nobody in the subconscious. It’s a machine.
It’s the equivalent of a CD recorder. You can put a CD in there, push play, and the program is playing. Now, talk to the recorder and see if it will change the program, and the answer is, “Nobody is in there. Nobody is going to listen to you. You’re going to get frustrated because you’re going to keep talking to yourself and then still finding you’re playing the same behavior.” It was not an appropriate way to change the program.
The appropriate way is hypnosis, repetition, and energy psychology. Those are the three.
We are out of time; however, go back to number one. You said play the things that you want to change right before bed in theta wave, right?
Just as you’re going off to sleep, yes.
For things that you want to hear, do you get recordings? How do you do it?
The first time I did it there were tapes called subliminal tapes a long time ago. I remember I did one by Louise Hay on patience or something like that, and these were dialogues about these topics: Patience, love, health, or whatever they are, and people had prerecorded things.
A simpler way it so talk to yourself like you are teaching yourself, and tell yourself that this is what you want and this is blah, blah, blah, and then once you record that if you play it, it will hear your program and repetition of playing it will put that into the program.
That’s what I’m going to do. I’m going to record myself telling myself certain things, because to me, that’s the best way to change.
Repeat it. Go through 15 or 20 minutes of it. Why? Because there is a part where you’re still awake and then there’s a part where you’re slipping off. It’s when you’re slipping off that the recording starts. If you put it on and you’re hearing the recording at the beginning – that’s why it was interesting, because the one I did with Louise Hay had at the very beginning a calming exercise to relax. Guess what? I heard the tape maybe the first one and a half times, but the third time when I started listening to the tape, the relaxation thing got me so relaxed that it really pushed me into theta and then I didn’t hear the rest of the tape after that. It’s because I was always sleeping by then.
This is a very important way of doing that. It’s very simple to have it play at night and repeat. Talk to yourself in very positive terms of what exactly you see; what you want; and then you’re programming the subconscious to look for that when your conscious is busy. Now it says, “Oh wait. I’m looking for love; I’m looking for positive here. I’m looking for health here.” That subconscious mind being auto pilot will take you to that destination.
To bring it full circle, it becomes physical. It becomes who you are. Your thoughts become who you are. Literally your genes change. Literally, your physical being and your world change. We tell ourselves who we are; we become our thoughts. We really do. That could be for better or for worse. We started this conversation with the title of the book; now I hope it makes sense to more people, The Biology of Belief, because it starts with our belief and then our biology changes and we become that person. The good news, folks, is you become a new person, but we’ve got to change who we are. We have to change our environments. Of course, cellular detox; of course change our environment in those ways, but the one that people forget about is we become who we think we are. Man, I’ll tell you what, Biology of Belief, you said it before we got online here. You said, “Ten years ago, you had added 40 more pages, and that’s all that needed changed in ten years. That book is so relevant to this day. I’m going to get it again. Can we get the new one with the 40 extra pages, because I want the new one?
Okay, just send me your mailing address, Dan, and we’ll make sure we get one right out to you.
Can other people buy the new one too?
It’s at the bookstores right now.
I didn’t know there are 40 new pages. I’m coming out of my skin. I was captivated by this. You can see that I was, because I understand the power of thought; I do. I’ve seen it in my own life and I’ve seen in the people that I see and coach. Bruce, I can’t thank you enough. I’ll tell you what, Meredith, I want to get him in our seminar. Listen, we’ll have a room full of 300 or 400 doctors that need to hear that. I want to hook the thing up and I want you to come to Scottsdale, Arizona. What are you doing in November beginning in November?
Thank you, Dan and Meredith. Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity of being here. I appreciate the audience very much, because this was my academic career, was really to interface the medical community, and I love doing it with a new science.
Listen, I’m going to get you in November. We’re going to teach 300 or 400 doctors who need to hear this.
Thank you so very much.
All the way from New Zealand on Skype, right? You’re in New Zealand.
Technology is amazing. That was great information. It’s going to change the world. Thank you for everything. Meredith, we’re signing off. Do you want to sign us off?
Yes, thank you so much Dr. Lipton. I’ve been taking notes and enjoying the information so much, so when is the newest version of Biology of Belief come out?
All right, beautiful. Go pick up a copy today and thanks so much for joining us. I will see you next time. Take care everybody.